[Danielle Balocca]: Hey Medford Bites listeners, before we get into today's episode, I wanted to provide some updates from last week's City Council budget meeting, using the reports from both Councilor Bears and Councilor Tseng. After hours of testimony from the public and negotiations between the council and the mayor, in addition to weeks of a budget process, in the early hours of Wednesday morning, the City Council approved the budget with some important adjustments. These adjustments include $300,000 for the schools to help keep teachers whose jobs were threatened in the original budget. $90,000 to keep the new library fully staffed with hopes to keep it open on Saturdays. $50,000 for a zoning consultant to aid the council in supporting the housing crisis in Medford and to support business growth. And $15,000 to support running smooth elections. There are many concerns expressed that although this was a big win, it is probably not a sustainable solution for the city's budget. The mayor expressed her hope to continue to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic and that city revenue will climb. Others expressed a need for a tax override to ensure a better and more consistent revenue source for the city. Today's episode includes an interview with friend and attorney Caitlin Ingleson. We discuss what it means to be a same-sex parent in Massachusetts. This episode was originally recorded before the reversal of Roe v. Wade, and some edits have been made to reflect these changes. You may notice this in the audio. Future episodes will address more about Roe v. Wade implications. I hope you enjoy. All right, thank you so much for being here with me today. I'm lucky to be here with my good friend. If you could introduce yourself and say your name and pronouns and just a bit about who you are.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure, absolutely. I'm thrilled to be here. My name is Caitlin Eagleson, and my pronouns are she, her, hers. And I am a friend of yours. I am my primary identity, Danielle's friend. No, um, I am a family law attorney. And I have a, I guess I would say focus or a strong commitment to serving LGBTQ clients and legal issues that come up for them. But that's not my only practice, but that is an important part of my practice.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thanks, Caitlin. So before we get a little more into why you're here today, I'm going to ask you the question of the podcast, which is what your favorite place is to eat in Medford and what you like to eat there.
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure. So is this here, is this a good time to reveal that I am not a Medford resident?
[Danielle Balocca]: I think you could.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Well, I am unlike many of your guests. I am not actually a Medford resident. I do. I do live close by. I hope that this counts. But my favorite place to get food from in Medford is Goldilocks bagels and the rosemary. I think it's rosemary salt. I don't know. But that is my favorite bagel.
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah. So you're not alone in that being your favorite place to eat in Medford a lot of people on the podcast, including myself would agree. I think it's, I think, to just sort of describe how we know each other is, which will be sort of the topic for today is that we both. um have kids and we're part of sort of a group of other families that are uh like with queer parents uh and um I think it's something to highlight about Medford and um you know the surrounding cities is that there is a pretty um strong supportive network of queer families um and I'm sure we've all shared Goldilocks bagels at all the birthday parties we've hosted for our kids um yeah and so yeah yeah
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I feel I mean, I do feel really lucky for our group of friends. And I think even just listening to your comment, you know, I, I think it's important to talk a little bit about language. And I, you know, I think that this is going to come up a few different times during our conversation today, hearing you say, like, you know, we have a group of queer parents, which is absolutely true. And you know, that's how I identify, I identify as queer. that is the identity that really resonates with me. And I find that I often will say, like in the intro when I was saying it's important to me to work on issues that affect LGBTQ families, I will sometimes say queer families instead. And I'm trying to find that balance of knowing that the language that works for me may be imperfect for others. Yeah, it's been wonderful for me and my family to have a strong group of friends where we all have similarly constructed families. We all have donor-conceived kids, and it's important for me to be able to talk to other parents who are similarly situated. And also, I'm so excited for my kid to have this group of people, or my kids, I have two now, to have a group of friends with whom they share this unique experience of parentage.
[Danielle Balocca]: For sure, I think that we have similar family makeup. We are two women who are raising two little boys. I think queer is like a really encompassing term for a lot of folks. I think too, what is nice about Medford is not only the number of queer families, but that there's like, so that families that are headed by same-sex partners, but also there's a lot of, young queer people and who have really supportive parents. Um so a lot of families that have um some sort of queerness somewhere in the mix um and I it's funny and I think I really appreciate our group of friends for this reason and that we that my kids can see it's normalized for them right like until recently until I think my son started kindergarten and was like seeing other kids parents I don't think he realized that like most kids don't have two moms, right? And I think that there's something that I never expected him to have that experience and I'm really grateful for it. But yeah, I think what we're hoping to talk about today is like all the things that go into being a queer parent. I think as a young person, I thought that conceiving children in a same-sex relationship was prohibitively expensive and that adoption was going to be the only choice for me. I think there was a kid in my high school class who was conceived through IVF and we called it test tube babies.
[SPEAKER_03]: I remember that term so well.
[Danielle Balocca]: I remember being like, wow, they must be really doing well for themselves if they could do that. I always thought adoption would be the only option for me. My wife carried both of our kids. And I think through various process, but I think that we've come a long way in terms of access to some of those things. And yeah, and I think I'm hoping to talk a little bit about the legal side of things. So what are the legal implications of being a parent in the same sex relationship?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, I do, you know, I think it's interesting. I feel like I keep like reflecting back on what you say, but I do think it's really interesting that you said growing up, you thought of, you know, that adoption would be the way to have kids in your life or in a same sex relationship. And, you know, while we've come a long way in terms of access, and that's true, and yet adoption was still part of your journey for, for parentage. And part of my journey too, my family went through the second parent adoption process, which is, you know, I think a big part of what we're going to talk about today. Um, so my family went through it, you went through it. And also that is a legal service that my firm Eagleson and Sturgis provides. Growing up, I, I don't know that I thought of, I don't think I had the analysis that you did about the financial aspect of it. I think I was kind of ignorant to that. But I did, I think when I thought about family formation, and for my own self, I kind of always thought that maybe adoption would be an option. And, uh, Yeah, so I don't know.
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah, I think and thank you for bringing up that point because we are going to talk about how adoption and the term you use second parent adoption applies to lots of us and I think even what our youngest was our oldest I was born in 2016. And I didn't think at that point that was something that as a resident of Massachusetts where gay rights are really protected, I would have to do something like that right and. And so could you explain like a little bit about what a second parent adoption is.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, absolutely. A second parent adoption or co parent adoption legally secures the rights and responsibilities of a non gestational parent in a way that will be recognized across the country. And I'm going to actually pause here just to explain a little bit about the language I use and the circumstances I'm talking about. So gestational parent refers to the partner who carries the fetus to term and give birth. And the non-gestational parent is the partner who does not. And in the eyes of the law, the gestational parent is the one who has automatic legal parentage. And I also want to know, I will sometimes default to saying same-sex couples when I describe this process, but it's important to note that not all folks going through a second parent adoption are same-sex couples. Sometimes my clients are a cisgender woman and a transgender man. So I may be imprecise in my language at times, and I want to acknowledge that. I also tend to, again, use queer as an umbrella term. Another thing I want to say is that at Eagleson and Sturgis, The majority of our work is with same-sex, female-identified couples, although we certainly have worked with clients who do not identify as women and also with trans folks. What I've not done is work with cisgender men who have used a surrogate. There are plenty of great people who do that work, and I hope to someday, and I'm just going to put in a quick plug for a law firm, Wilson, Marino, and Bonnevie, fantastic lawyers over there who have a more robust adoption practice, whereas I feel very confident and focused on this particular kind of second parent adoption. So anyway, going back to the explanation of what it is, here in Massachusetts, when a child is born into a marriage, the two parties of that marriage have a presumption of legal parentage to that child, even if the child is not biologically related to both of them. And that's true for opposite sex heterosexual couples too. When a cis man and woman are married and the woman gives birth to a child, her husband is presumed to be the legal father, whether or not he is the biological father. So, that extends to same-sex couples here in Massachusetts and both parties can sign the birth certificate if the couple is married. However, it's only a presumption and we still encourage married couples to complete a second parent adoption to secure the rights of both of them against any legal challenge to parentage and to ensure that both parents have protection on a federal level. While states are supposed to give full faith and credit to the laws of other states, what we know is that adoptions are federally recognized, and so it's just the safest bet. Completing a second parent adoption will accomplish a number of things. It will permanently terminate the rights of any donor. It will, of course, protect your legal relationship to your child. in other states that may be, you know, less accepting of or even hostile towards LGBTQ plus families. And it will also protect your children's inheritance that may flow through the non-gestational parent's estate.
[SPEAKER_03]: So I know that was a very long answer, but I wanted to explain a little bit about what a second parent adoption is and also why, you know, even if I'm dealing with married folks in Massachusetts, I still recommend that they get it done.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you. And I think in 2016, in particular, you know, you mentioned marriage being like, in a requirement for this, you know, extension of parental rights. So in 2016, we were very worried about the new president at that time, like threatening gay marriage, right? So we were worried about what if our marriage is no longer legal, then I won't have any rights to my child, right? And I think that was, I think before that, I was like, oh, well, I don't need to do this, but that's definitely was the push too. And then, and I think now, especially too, I'm imagining folks are having some similar concerns.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I am definitely getting, yeah, I see this ebb and flow for second parent adoption requests for our firm. And there's definitely been an uptick. So Supreme Court decision, which makes it very clear that, you know, all of our rights that we take for granted, we shouldn't. And yeah, so definitely an uptick in requests for second parent adoption. Now people are afraid. And rightfully so. You know, I think that as white, middle class, cis, queer people in Massachusetts, we will be okay. I think that this kind of stripping of rights is going to affect a lot of other communities before us.
[Danielle Balocca]: Sure. And so one, just like to backpedal a little bit, you've mentioned, you've used the term cisgender a couple of times, and just want to clarify for folks that maybe haven't heard that term, or maybe hasn't been defined for them, what we're saying there is that someone's gender assigned at birth matches their current gender identity. So I was assigned female at birth, I still identify as female. So when we talk about cisgender heterosexual couples, that's, someone who's assigned female at birth still identifies as female coupled with somebody assigned male at birth so identified as male and it sounds like the law reflects usually that those kinds of terms like male female things like that.
[SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely. And, um, and father and mother and paternity and GLAAD is spearheading advocacy and important legal work around changing that. And there's pending legislation, which would change the wording in the laws, specifically in chapter 209 C, um, section six, which has to do with presumption of paternity to change that language so that it's parentage. and to change some of the gendered pronouns in the law. And he has really important advocacy right now. Unfortunately, we are stuck with the language that we have. And I just do also want to acknowledge through the course of this interview, you know, I also sometimes will use language that, again, is imperfect. And I find myself, because I'm talking about the law and we're talking about gendered language and gendered ideas of what makes a family and who can parents be, and, you know, that it's one man, one woman, all of that archaic, patriarchal, white supremacist BS, you know, that I will sometimes fall into that chase.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thanks for acknowledging that. And I am sure I'm guilty of the same. So I think you mentioned what a second parent adoption is and why it's important. And I know you and I have some differing sort of thoughts about maybe on the more like emotional pieces of a second parent adoption. And I think you, you know, you identifying as the gestational parent, I'm not, I think that is sort of two different sides of what the meaning of the second parent adoption. I wonder if, I think it's changed, but if you could speak to like, what is involved in that process?
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, sure. What is involved in the second parent adoption process itself?
[Danielle Balocca]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, sure. OK, so to complete a second parent adoption, you file a petition for adoption with the family and probate court in the county where you live. And there are a number of documents in support that go along with this petition, which affirm the intention of the couple to be two legally recognized parents to the child. For the second parent adoption, you can ask the court to skip some of the more intrusive prerequisites of a typical adoption, including the requirements of notice to the donor. Usually notice has to be given to any known or unknown father. And so we ask that that requirement be waived when there is a donor. We also ask that the court waive the requirement that a licensed home study be done. And also when the kid is under six months, we ask that the requirement that a child who lives in your home for six months before an adoption be waived. and those are all routinely granted. In some counties here, if you're married, you do not even need to go to the court in person and the court can just grant the adoption administratively if that's what you choose. Many of the documents that we submit include details about each family and the formation of that family and specifically the role of the non-gestational parent. And I think that's the piece that sometimes hits
[SPEAKER_03]: hits my clients in an emotional place. Because again, it's, it's, you know, our experience is we are two people who have decided to have a child together, we have both been equally participating in all of the steps to do that. And then one person, the one who does not have, well, and let me just say, most of the time, the one the person who does not have a biological connection to the child, has to put into writing, you know, kind of this plea of like, please accept me as a parent. I just, I do want to point out that there's something called reciprocal IVF, whereby the child is conceived through donor sperm and the egg of one partner, but then the other partner carries that fetus to term. So sometimes when I say gestational parent, I'm using that kind of as shorthand to mean the parent who has a biological connection to the child, but it's not always true. And I still recommend to those clients who come to me and say, well, yeah, my partner carried, but it was my genetic material. I say, we still do a second parent adoption and the law still looks at it as The person who gave birth is the one with those protected legal rights automatically. I don't know, does that?
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah. Okay, sure. And so you're speaking, so you need to hire a lawyer to help you with this process, right? And then, so fill out this paperwork. For me, personally, it also involved getting personal statements from friends and family as to why I was an acceptable parent to my then like, almost year old child. And then we had to appear in court. So we I mean, I think it was more of a like, just, you know, crossing the T's and dying the I's. But I think that was it's a lot of the thing it was like a financial burden for us for me personally it was like a bit of an emotional burden um i think really well-meaning family members wanted this to be a celebration and for me it was like partially that like yes like this is a protection and also like this kind of sucks right um i think and i think for me as like this was our first child a first-time parent you know, looking, trying to figure out what is my role, right? As like a mom, but also not the gestational parent, right? How do we, how am I balancing like who I am to this child? And then really having to justify that to the, to the government basically. Yeah, I think made it an emotional process for sure.
[SPEAKER_03]: Right. And, oh my gosh, there are so many things I want to pick up on what you said, but I'll try to like limit it somewhat. But I think that like, you know, what you just said really resonates because the last part, because I think the second parent adoption process, it, it highlights a this premium on biology, that is pervasive in our culture. And so, you know, in same sex couples, we are faced with this so much, especially when I mean, when we become parents, right, we're faced with this you know, well, who's the real mom, you know, so going back to my point, or the thing that I wanted to pick up from what you said is, yeah, just this, like, there is this pervasive thing in our culture of biology means something really important. And so when you are not biologically connected to your children, that is less than I mean, adoptive parents, go through this too, you know, being asked, you know, you know, is that child yours? No, but I mean, like, really yours, you know, or, you know, are your children siblings, you know, like adoptive parents who have multiple kids? And it's like, well, yes, they are my children, you know. So that so so anyway, I guess I just wanted to pick up on what you said, like, it's, you're already facing that internally. You know, what is my connection going to be to this child? Because you've you've grown up kind of swimming in the sea where where biology has such a premium. And then you have, you know, people externally saying to you, but who who's the real mom? You know, and then you have this legal step, this other thing saying like, yeah, you're not really the real parent.
[Danielle Balocca]: And I think, in addition to that, the models that you know the sort of traditional model for a family of mother father children, I think there's like a lot of assumptions about those roles right and there's not like a there's there's not a lot of like. like uh what's like templates for like second other mom right like okay well like she feeds the baby she does you know like she does like all these things the baby like the baby needs her for these things so like what am i here for right and yeah and i think that's that's that was my definitely my emotional journey with the first one i think when the second one came there was just so much happening there was no time to worry about those things um yeah But yeah, no, thank you.
[SPEAKER_03]: Also, another thing that you said is that you had to get statements from friends and family affirming what a wonderful parent you were. And in my practice, we don't do that. And so I think that's another thing that's frustrating and another thing that GLAAD points out in their advocacy and in their trying to change the actual law is that you know, it varies practice to practice how we do it. I mean, I, the way that I do my second parent adoptions is because, you know, a lovely friend and colleague, you know, many years ago was just like, Oh yeah, here are all my templates. So I just kind of do those, but the, the various counties, there's also differences in, in which documents they want. Um, So you know I have a an excel spreadsheet with you know each county and then. what is needed for that. So there's just, there's not much a uniformity.
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah. There was something too. They told us in the first one about there was a potential to require a home study. So like someone to come to our house, make sure it was, you know, make sure that we were suitable parents. And I think that happens more commonly in other States that have maybe different advocacy around same-sex parents, but that was hard as well.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. So in part of the documents, you know, part of the packet, two things we do. One is a motion to waive the requirement for a home study. And a home study is required in all adoptions, except when one of the parents is a biological parent. And then another thing I do is a motion to waive notice to any biological father. which is also usually a part of the adoption process, no matter, you know, who's doing it, that you have to give notice to any and all unknown, unnamed biological fathers. And, you know, the way that that's handled in the second parent adoption process is, you know, we usually, give a copy of the contract with either the sperm bank or a known donor and say, you know, this would be fruitless and it's not needed. Great.
[Danielle Balocca]: I had forgotten about that piece too. Yeah. Well, thank you. I think I, so I, and I do recognize that for me, it was like an sort of an annoyance and maybe it made me like a little bit sad, but I think you've pointed out to me very graciously that it's, I think that it is a positive thing that we have this option, right? That we can get, that I do have legal rights and legal protections over my children.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I, you know, again, just like a much more personal take. I do see it that way. I do see it as a we get to and and much less about we have to, you know, I think I in sharing that I think I really need to acknowledge that, you know, I am a gestational parent. And I don't think that my voice needs to be very loud in this conversation, because there is privilege that comes with that. I mean, again, this premium on biology. But yeah, I mean, I do. I do think I am grateful that there was a process through which we could affirm my spouse's legal rights to our children. you know, in this larger conversation, but, but, you know, the way that we form our families is different. It's, it's different than what cis heterosexual people do. And, and, you know, part of what I love about being queer is being queer and we are different. And, you know, for me, part of the, message in the marriage equality movement is we are just like you, you know, we are, you know, and it's kind of like this invitation to the heteronormative culture. And, you know, I think, I think it's important for me, I'll just say for me as a white cis person to say, like, why am I being invited to that table? And what does that mean once we've reached that equality? You know, families are constructed in many ways, obviously single parent households, you know, children in blended families who have multiple parents, children being raised by different constellations of caregivers. And, you know, the law is kind of the gatekeeper for who gets to be recognized as legal parents. And now, like, queer married folks like we got to see that the table, you know, sure. But I think we all need to be very aware of, you know, how, how we can then be kind of used as this idea of like a model minority.
[Danielle Balocca]: Hmm. I really appreciate that perspective. And I think that there's a very wise man that's one of the podcast named David Harris. He used a similar idea when we talked about like equity in terms of like race in our city. And he used that idea of like bringing people to the table, right? Like we can join this table, which we can maintain the status quo. We're like, what does it mean to be a family? We're joining that rather than dismantling this table and creating something totally different.
[SPEAKER_03]: Totally. Totally. And like disrupting that premium on, on biology and like, instead of like, we have to adopt, like we get to adopt adoption is a beautiful, wonderful thing that like many people really want to do. And, and I mean, you know, not to say that that's not complicated too, because it is, and, and there's, you know, can be like trauma for, for, you know, involved, but everything is complicated, you know? And I guess, I guess sometimes when I hear, and again, this is personally, and so, you know, I hope, you know, well, whatever, but I think this may mean that people don't come to me for my business, which is fine, but this is who I am, you know, personally, it's like, Oh, I have to adopt. It's like, Oh man, we get to like, yeah. You know what I think? I think one other piece to put on the table is just like, You know, there's a lot of, because of this premium on biology, there's a lot of, of secrecy, you know, in the, in the kind of the history of IVF, like it was shrouded in secrecy and it was, you know, we can't let anybody know that this child is not made up of the genetic material of this married man and woman and, and same with adoption. In law school, I was lucky to work on a project about original birth certificates of adoptees were sealed and those people couldn't even go and get it. Um, you know, because in adoptions, once the adoption is finalized a new birth certificate issue, and it will name the adopt parents on it, which for us, you and I, because we were both able to sign the birth certificate in the hospital because we were married. So our reissued birth certificates, our kids reissued birth certificates look identical to their first one, but for, um, you know, other folks. it, it, once the adoption is finalized, you will now have the adoptive parents names on them. I mean, that's a legal fiction. Yeah.
[Danielle Balocca]: It's making me think about a lot more sort of personal stories that I probably shouldn't tell on the podcast, but I think that, that idea of like, well, yeah, the idea of secrecy and like what we tell our kids about how they were conceived and which I've, I've heard you have some good book recommendations for that, but, um,
[SPEAKER_03]: Zach Safari.
[Danielle Balocca]: Yeah. Yeah. And like, and even like how we choose a donor, right? Do we choose them to be anonymous or do we choose them to be open? Like, and for us, there was a big piece about like, what physical attributes are important to this child or potentially this child that could make them look not totally different from me, right? Which like, you know, I think is like a real privilege to be able to have that choice. And like it, I didn't think about it in this, in the way you're describing, but it's really interesting.
[SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think, I think it's, I think it's important to, to like really get comfortable holding duality. in our mind. So like, understanding, I mean, and you know, my spouse and I certainly did the same thing, we tried to pick our donor based on characteristics that my spouse has. Because again, like we are products of our environment. And you know, this whole like, there is a part of, well, again, I'll just speak for myself, like me, that's like, right, we're trying to kind of ape that template, that heteronormative template of like, two, you know, opposite sex gender folks contribute genetic material and make a baby. And that's what we're trying to do too, you know, we're trying to get as close to it as possible. And so, and that's okay. Like there, there's nothing wrong with that, but then it's also like, okay, let's, let's dig into that. Why are we trying to do that? What is, what, what was the harm if we didn't? But yeah. And I mean, you know, I think the whole thing about choosing a donor, I think it's, it's a really, personal and, um, you know, important topic.
[Danielle Balocca]: And it's probably like a discussion for a whole other podcast, but, um, Is there any advice that you have for, um, like queer people that are thinking about parenting?
[SPEAKER_03]: Uh, it's amazing and really hard. Um, I mean, just parenting in general. Uh, I mean, I, you know, I stick to my line of like, I think second parent adoptions are really important. Um, but yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, get yourself a crew like we have, but it's pretty amazing. Um, yeah. And just, I guess, um, legally do your second parent adoption. Yeah. Oh, and wait, hold on. I'm so sorry. There is one other thing. Like when we were talking about the cost of this and you were saying like, you have to hire a lawyer, blah, blah, blah. I just want to say, you do not have to hire a lawyer. And there are like, you can do it yourself. And again, because the counties are really different. Some of them are easier to deal with than others when you're just doing it yourself and like middle sex. There's a wonderful, usually each county has like one person who does the adoptions. They tend to be super nice. And I've also seen like on Facebook groups and stuff, people are willing to share the paperwork they've done, they've used. So I find that a lot of folks come to me because like many things when you're juggling small children, it's like, I'm just gonna outsource this and then I don't have to think about it. So, and, you know, I don't, I really, I honestly don't mean this as a plug, but another thing that like our firm offers is we like for a much discounted rate, like to just review your paperwork if you've done it on your own. So I guess I just want to put it out there that like, if, if you are resourceful and have extra time and want to do it yourself, like go for it. And I, and I tell everybody who consults with our firm that.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thank you, Caitlin. Thanks so much.
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for having me and happy pride. You too.
[Danielle Balocca]: Thanks so much to Caitlin. Links to her firm's website can be found in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. And as always, if you have feedback about this episode or ideas for future episodes, you can email medfordpod at gmail.com. You can also subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. Guys, what's the name of the podcast? Medford Bites!